Locations (List) Where Vatican II Says it is Teaching the Faithful (Not Just Pastoral)

Just as the words Dogmatic Constitution and Decree would suggest Vatican II did teach doctrine. Check out how many times it says it is teaching in the first paragraph which means the rest are also teaching!

Lumen Gentium #14 “This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. “

Lumen Gentium #18 “This Sacred Council, following closely in the footsteps of the First Vatican Council, with that Council teaches and declares that Jesus Christ, the eternal Shepherd, established His holy Church, having sent forth the apostles as He Himself had been sent by the Father; and He willed that their successors, namely the bishops, should be shepherds in His Church even to the consummation of the world. And in order that the episcopate itself might be one and undivided, He placed Blessed Peter over the other apostles, and instituted in him a permanent and visible source and foundation of unity of faith and communion. And all this teaching about the institution, the perpetuity, the meaning and reason for the sacred primacy of the Roman Pontiff and of his infallible magisterium, this Sacred Council again proposes to be firmly believed by all the faithful. Continuing in that same undertaking, this Council is resolved to declare and proclaim before all men the doctrine concerning bishops, the successors of the apostles, who together with the successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ, the visible Head of the whole Church, govern the house of the living God.”

Lumen Gentium #20 “Therefore, the Sacred Council teaches that bishops by divine institution have succeeded to the place of the apostles, as shepherds of the Church, and he who hears them, hears Christ, and he who rejects them, rejects Christ and Him who sent Christ.”

Lumen Gentium #21And the Sacred Council teaches that by Episcopal consecration the fullness of the sacrament of Orders is conferred, that fullness of power, namely, which both in the Church’s liturgical practice and in the language of the Fathers of the Church is called the high priesthood, the supreme power of the sacred ministry.”

Lumen gentium #67This most Holy Synod deliberately teaches this Catholic doctrine and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and the practices and exercises of piety, recommended by the magisterium of the Church toward her in the course of centuries be made of great moment, and those decrees, which have been given in the early days regarding the cult of images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed.”

Gaudium et Spes #18 “Although the mystery of death utterly beggars the imagination, the Church has been taught by divine revelation and firmly teaches that man has been created by God for a blissful purpose beyond the reach of earthly misery.”

Gaudium et Spes #21The Church holds that the recognition of God is in no way hostile to man’s dignity, since this dignity is rooted and perfected in God. For man was made an intelligent and free member of society by God Who created him, but even more important, he is called as a son to commune with God and share in His happiness. She further teaches that a hope related to the end of time does not diminish the importance of intervening duties but rather undergirds the acquittal of them with fresh incentives. “

Gaudium et Spes #41The Church, therefore, by virtue of the Gospel committed to her, proclaims the rights of man; she acknowledges and greatly esteems the dynamic movements of today by which these rights are everywhere fostered. “

Gaudium et Spes #59This Sacred Synod, therefore, recalling the teaching of the first Vatican Council, declares that there are “two orders of knowledge” which are distinct, namely faith and reason; and that the Church does not forbid that “the human arts and disciplines use their own principles and their proper method, each in its own domain”; therefore “acknowledging this just liberty,” this Sacred Synod affirms the legitimate autonomy of human culture and especially of the sciences.”

Gaudium et Spes #91Undeniably this conciliar program is but a general one in several of its parts; and deliberately so, given the immense variety of situations and forms of human culture in the world. Indeed while it presents teaching already accepted in the Church, the program will have to be followed up and amplified since it sometimes deals with matters in a constant state of development. “

Gaudium et Spes Note #1 “In the first part, the Church develops her teaching on man, on the world which is the enveloping context of man’s existence, and on man’s relations to his fellow men. In part two, the Church gives closer consideration to various aspects of modern life and human society; special consideration is given to those questions and problems which, in this general area, seem to have a greater urgency in our day. As a result in part two the subject matter which is viewed in the light of doctrinal principles is made up of diverse elements. Some elements have a permanent value; others, only a transitory one. Consequently, the constitution must be interpreted according to the general norms of theological interpretation. Interpreters must bear in mind—especially in part two—the changeable circumstances which the subject matter, by its very nature, involves.”

Dei Verbum #1 “Hearing the word of God with reverence and proclaiming it with faith, the sacred synod takes its direction from these words of St. John: “We announce to you the eternal life which dwelt with the Father and was made visible to us. What we have seen and heard we announce to you, so that you may have fellowship with us and our common fellowship be with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ” (1 John 1:2-3). Therefore, following in the footsteps of the Council of Trent and of the First Vatican Council, this present council wishes to set forth authentic doctrine on divine revelation and how it is handed on, so that by hearing the message of salvation the whole world may believe, by believing it may hope, and by hoping it may love.”

Dei Verbum #6As a sacred synod has affirmed, God, the beginning and end of all things, can be known with certainty from created reality by the light of human reason (see Rom. 1:20); but teaches that it is through His revelation that those religious truths which are by their nature accessible to human reason can be known by all men with ease, with solid certitude and with no trace of error, even in this present state of the human race.”

Dei Verbum #11 “Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.”

Inter Mirifica #2 “Hence, this sacred Synod, attentive to the watchful concern manifested by the Supreme Pontiffs and Bishops in a matter of such great importance, judges it to be its duty to treat of the principal questions linked with the media of social communication. It trusts, moreover, that the teaching and regulations it thus sets forth will serve to promote, not only the eternal welfare of Christians, but also the progress of all mankind.”

Inter Mirifica #6 “The second question deals with the relationship between the rights, as they are called, of art and the norms of morality. Since the mounting controversies in this area frequently take their rise from false teachings about ethics and aesthetics, the Council proclaims that all must hold to the absolute primacy of the objective moral order, that is, this order by itself surpasses and fittingly coordinates all other spheres of human affairs-the arts not excepted-even though they be endowed with notable dignity.”

Inter Mirifica #17 “Therefore, this sacred Synod advises them of the obligation they have to maintain and assist Catholic newspapers, periodicals and film projects, radio and television programs and stations, whose principal objective is to spread and defend the truth and foster Christian influence in human society. “

Unitatis Redintegratio #1 “The Sacred Council gladly notes all this. It has already declared its teaching on the Church, and now, moved by a desire for the restoration of unity among all the followers of Christ, it wishes to set before all Catholics the ways and means by which they too can respond to this grace and to this divine call.”

Sacrosanctum Concilium #4 “Lastly, in faithful obedience to tradition, the sacred Council declares that holy Mother Church holds all lawfully acknowledged rites to be of equal right and dignity; that she wishes to preserve them in the future and to foster them in every way. The Council also desires that, where necessary, the rites be revised carefully in the light of sound tradition, and that they be given new vigor to meet the circumstances and needs of modern times.”

Sacrosanctum Concilium #3 “Wherefore the sacred Council judges that the following principles concerning the promotion and reform of the liturgy should be called to mind, and that practical norms should be established.”

Ad Gentes #14 “Finally, the juridic status of catechumens should be clearly defined in the new code of Canon law. For since they are joined to the Church, they are already of the household of Christ, and not seldom they are already leading a life of faith, hope, and charity.”

Dignitatis Humanae #1 “This Vatican Council takes careful note of these desires in the minds of men. It proposes to declare them to be greatly in accord with truth and justice. To this end, it searches into the sacred tradition and doctrine of the Church-the treasury out of which the Church continually brings forth new things that are in harmony with the things that are old. First, the council professes its belief that God Himself has made known to mankind the way in which men are to serve Him, and thus be saved in Christ and come to blessedness. We believe that this one true religion subsists in the Catholic and Apostolic Church, to which the Lord Jesus committed the duty of spreading it abroad among all men. Thus He spoke to the Apostles: “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined upon you” (Matt. 28: 19-20). On their part, all men are bound to seek the truth, especially in what concerns God and His Church, and to embrace the truth they come to know, and to hold fast to it. This Vatican Council likewise professes its belief that it is upon the human conscience that these obligations fall and exert their binding force. The truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it makes its entrance into the mind at once quietly and with power. Religious freedom, in turn, which men demand as necessary to fulfill their duty to worship God, has to do with immunity from coercion in civil society. Therefore it leaves untouched traditional Catholic doctrine on the moral duty of men and societies toward the true religion and toward the one Church of Christ. Over and above all this, the council intends to develop the doctrine of recent popes on the inviolable rights of the human person and the constitutional order of society.”

Dignitatis Humanae #2This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits. The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself. This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.”

Dignitatis Humanae #10It is one of the major tenets of Catholic doctrine that man’s response to God in faith must be free: no one therefore is to be forced to embrace the Christian faith against his own will. This doctrine is contained in the word of God and it was constantly proclaimed by the Fathers of the Church.”

Dignitatis Humanae #14 “All is to be taken into account-the Christian duty to Christ, the life-giving word which must be proclaimed, the rights of the human person, and the measure of grace granted by God through Christ to men who are invited freely to accept and profess the faith.”

Christus Dominus #3This sacred synod, therefore, attentive to the conditions of human association which have brought about a new order of things in our time,(7) intends to determine more exactly the pastoral office of bishops and, therefore, has decreed the things that follow.”

Christus Dominus #44This sacred synod prescribes that in the revision of the code of canon law suitable laws be drawn up in keeping with the principles stated in this decree. Due consideration should also be given the observations made by the commissions and the council Fathers. This sacred synod also prescribes that general directories be prepared treating of the care of souls for the use of both bishops and pastors. Thus they will be provided with certain methods which will help them to discharge their own pastoral office with greater ease and effectiveness. There should be prepared also a particular directory concerning the pastoral care of special groups of the faithful as the different circumstances of individual nations or regions require. Another directory should be composed concerning the catechetical instruction of the Christian people; this directory will consider the fundamental principles of such instruction, its disposition and the composition of books on the subject. In preparing these directories, special attention should be given to the views which have been expressed both by the commissions and the council Fathers.

Christus Dominus #40 “Therefore, in order to accomplish these aims this sacred synod decrees as follows”

Perfectae Caritatis #1 “In order that the great value of a life consecrated by the profession of the counsels and its necessary mission today may yield greater good to the Church, the sacred synod lays down the following prescriptions. They are meant to state only the general principles of the adaptation and renewal of the life and discipline of Religious orders and also, without prejudice to their special characteristics, of societies of common life without vows and secular institutes. Particular norms for the proper explanation and application of these principles are to be determined after the council by the authority in question.”

Presbyterorum Ordinis #1“Therefore, in order that their ministry be carried on more effectively and their lives be better provided for, in pastoral and human circumstances which very often change so profoundly, this sacred synod declares and decrees as follows.

Gravissimum Educationis #1 “Hence this sacred synod declares certain fundamental principles of Christian education especially in schools. These principles will have to be developed at greater length by a special post-conciliar commission and applied by episcopal conferences to varying local situations.”

Gravissimum Educationis #12The sacred synod earnestly entreats young people themselves to become aware of the importance of the work of education and to prepare themselves to take it up, especially where because of a shortage of teachers the education of youth is in jeopardy. “

Optatam Totius Preface “Animated by the spirit of Christ, this sacred synod is fully aware that the desired renewal of the whole Church depends to a great extent on the ministry of its priests. It proclaims the extreme importance of priestly training and lays down certain basic principles by which those regulations may be strengthened which long use has shown to be sound and by which those new elements can be added which correspond to the constitutions and decrees of this sacred council and to the changed conditions of our times. Because of the very unity of the Catholic priesthood this priestly formation is necessary for all priests, diocesan and religious and of every rite. Wherefore, while these prescriptions directly concern the diocesan clergy, they are to be appropriately adapted to all.

Orientalium Ecclesiarum #1This Sacred Ecumenical Council, therefore, in its care for the Eastern Churches which bear living witness to this tradition, in order that they may flourish and with new apostolic vigor execute the task entrusted to them, has determined to lay down a number of principles, in addition to those which refer to the universal Church; all else is remitted to the care of the Eastern synods and of the Holy See.”

Was Vatican II Just Pastoral? Reason and Theology

Was Vatican II Merely Pastoral with Michael Lofton – YouTube

In this video, Michael Lofton dispels the myth that Vatican II was both doctrinal and pastoral, just as Scripture can be both pastoral and doctrinal.

He goes through points showing that the moral and doctrinal points in Vatican II were not just wish-wash but had solid and doctrinal character.

Pope Paul VI comments on the pastoral nature of the council are addressed first and he shows that a distinction btw dogma and doctrine is in need to properly understand the Pope’s comments.

33 Days to Morning Glory – Vatican II

This is an Epic book! – Highly recommend. It has brought wonders to my life and so many others. To Jesus through Mary.

In addition to 33 days to Morning Glory I have read both St. Luis de Montfort’s True Devotion and The Marian Vow by FI Fr. Stefano M. Manelli. Although I got a lot out of Luis de Montfort’s book, 33 days to Morning Glory by Michael E. Gaitely, MIC is my top choice because it benefits from St. John Paul II’s more recent teaching and Vatican II’s contribution as well as the modern Sts. Kolbe and Mother Teresa. Fr. Stenfano’s book I recommend as an aside project if you want to dive more deeper into Marian action in your life (She acting through you) after you read the other two books mentioned.

Let us remember that Gaitely chose to open the work with a quote from Vatican II. (the cover page before the table of contents – at least in my edition)

Everyone should have a genuine devotion to [Mary] and entrust their life to her motherly care” -Vatican II

Gaitely also divides his book into 4 major parts. He starts with St. Luis de Montfort, then continues with St. Maximilian Kolbe, then St. Mother Teresa and ends with St. John Paul II.

As is stated in the intro to his fourth part, “St. John Paul II, “The most Marian Pope,” as he’s been called, profoundly deepened the Church’s understanding of Marian consecration. Building on the work of the Second Vatican Council, he provides us with a thoroughly biblical treatment of Marian consecration…

It is good to remember that it was Vatican II that has given Mary as mediatrix a deep push into authoritative Church teaching in Lumen Gentium. The Dogmatic Constitution of the Church (Lumen Gentium) teaches in paragraphs 61-2. (Bold mine – Vatican Translation)

61. Predestined from eternity by that decree of divine providence which determined the incarnation of the Word to be the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin was on this earth the virgin Mother of the Redeemer, and above all others and in a singular way the generous associate and humble handmaid of the Lord. She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ. She presented Him to the Father in the temple, and was united with Him by compassion as He died on the Cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Savior in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace.

62. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15*) By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.

For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer.

It is no wonder why Gaitley chose to end with St. John Paul II, because he built upon Vatican II’s call for Marian maternal help so wonderfully expressed in Marian consecration. Vatican II helped the greatest Marian Pope ever deepen his understanding of Mary’s role and give him a push to bring it into his mission and our lives more fully.

Overall, I hope you pick up any material on Marian Consecration if you have not already done so. She does not take away crosses but she does dip them in honey. Personally, I know that when I made the consecration so many graces were brought into my life. I hope to live up to this calling in my every day life.

Réfutation des objections contre le Concile Vatican II — + Archidiacre +

Cette «Súmula» par Nelson Sarmento répond aux principales objections qui sont communément faites par les lefebvristes et les sedevacantistes en opposition au Concile Vatican II.

Réfutation des objections contre le Concile Vatican II — + Archidiacre +

In this great article you will find the following answers

1. The revelation would have been completed at crucifixion

2. The Holy Spirit acts in heretic and schismatic saints, so that they are not stripped of meaning and importance in the mystery of salvation

3. Prayer with heretics and schismatics

4. The natural right of non-Catholics to religious freedom

5. The right to religious freedom in denominational countries

6. The purposes of marriage

7. Today’s Jews are not responsible for the passion and death of Christ

8. Jews are not presented in the Scriptures as rejected or cursed

9. Past dissension with Muslims must be forgotten

10. Protestant liturgical actions engender the life of grace and give access to the communion of salvation

11. There are holy and true things in false religions

12. The Catholic Church looks with sincere respect at the way of acting and living, the precepts and doctrines, which are not true in false religions

13. The Church tends to the fullness of truth

14. The Church is called to reform itself

15. Distinction between the truths of the deposit of faith and the manner in which they are pronounced

16. Truth is imposed only by the force of truth itself

17. The Church as a Trinitarian Mystery, Trinitarian Ecclesiology (Lumen Gentium 2-4)

18. The Pope alone and the College of Bishops as two subjects of supreme and full authority in the Church

19. The Church as God’s people. (Lumen gentium, CH II)

20. The Church needs purification

21. Sin diminishes man

22. The Church as sacrament

23. The Church is the instrument of unity for the whole human race

24. Our Lady is making progress on the path of faith  

25. Redemption was fulfilled in the Easter mystery of passion, resurrection and ascension

26. In baptism, we are grafted into the Easter mystery

27. Fathers, as collaborators of bishops, have the primary function of proclaiming the Gospel

28. Catholics participate in the prophetic function of Christ

29. By incarnation, the Son of God has united in a certain way with every man, therefore in Christ human nature has been elevated to a sublime dignity

30. The only creature man wanted by himself by God

31. The divine resemblance has been altered by Adam’s sin

32. People born in heretical sects cannot be accused of the sin of division

33. Heretics and schismatics may believe or have faith in Christ

34. Heretics and schismatics, validly baptized, find themselves in an imperfect communion with the Church

35. Heretics and schismatics, validly baptized, are incorporated into Christ

36. Elements of truth and sanctification in separate communities

37. Bloodshed or martyrdom by heretics and schismatics

38. The manner and method of formulating Catholic doctrine must not become an obstacle to dialogue with the separated brethren

39. Hierarchy of the Truths of Catholic Doctrine

40. Seeds of the verb in false religions

41. Muslims worship the one God

42. Common priesthood of the faithful

43. Autonomy and independence of the political community and the Church, in their own field

44. Giving sacraments to Orthodox Christians

45. Participation in non-Catholic sacred rites and reception of non-Catholic sacraments

46. Please let all be a

47. “Separated Brothers”

48. Heretics and schismatics called Christians

49. In the separation, it is the fault of the men on one side and the other.

50. We must eliminate words, judgments and actions that do not correspond to the condition of the separated brothers

51. Dialogue between Christians on their own doctrines

52. Cooperation between Christians in the social field

53. The Eucharistic celebration in the Eastern churches, builds the Church of God and grows

54. Universal Brotherhood among Men

55. A source of revelation

56. Tradition fully transmits the word of God entrusted by Christ the Lord and the Holy Ghost to the apostles

57. Scripture teaches without error the truth that God wanted to be delivered to our salvation

58. The competence of bishops

59. The Church has always worshipped the divine Scriptures as the Body of the Lord

60. Living Tradition

61. Active participation in liturgical celebrations (Const. Concilium Sacrosanctum)

62. The economy of revelation comes from deeds and words

63. Separate communities used as a means of salvation

64. Subsistit in

65. The apostolic tradition is progressing in the Church

66. The Ecumenical Movement is recognized within the Catholic Church

Reason and Theology Review of Dr. Taylor Marshall on Pope Francis and Vatican II

Review of Taylor Marshal on Pope Francis and Vatican II with Michael Lofton – YouTube

Now I don’t agree with everything that Michael Lofton says, but he makes some very very great points.

He goes into detail showing how Dr. Taylor Marshall drops the ball on Vatican II and Pope Francis.

He shows that saying Vatican II does not have any anathemas is not a great point to make. (Other councils did not either)

He shows that Vatican II did teach dogma and that you cannot disregard that without going down Martin Luther’s path.

There is not just optional and infallible teaching with nothing in between. There is a lot in between. Many things that it teaches may not be infallible but are still magisterial teachings! And we need to have a religious submission to the magisterium and Pope and ecumenical councils.

Lofton says that you are in sin if you dissent from the council. He challenges those who say that Vatican II broke from tradition that you should prove to him those points. Prove it. Show that previous council and teaching really were of a greater and more authoritative weight.

We have not only many years of Popes accepting the teaching plus the authority of the Council itself. That is a lot! It takes a lot of authority to go against that. There is not discontinuity in the texts with the past. It is impossible to prove that V2 is in error.

Are Vatican II’s teachings infallible and binding, or fallible and optional?

Vatican II FAQs – Word on Fire

This is a false dilemma. First, as stated in question 3, Vatican II does affirm infallible dogmas of the faith. These affirmations require the assent of faith on the part of Catholics.

But even when they are not affirming infallible dogma, the Second Vatican Council presents the teachings of the ordinary and universal Magisterium through an ecumenical council of the Church. This means that these teachings are assisted by the Holy Spirit (CCC 688), are promulgated by the pope in communion with the “authentic teachers of the apostolic faith endowed with the authority of Christ” (CCC 888), and require “religious assent which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it” (CCC 892). In short, the teachings are guarded from doctrinal error and are binding on all Catholics; they are not optional.

(Also Dr. Taylor Marshall making comments on Hermeneutics of Continuity and Pope Francis’ comments on an interview – – irrelevant — interviews don’t matter as much as what he says in his weightier and more authoritative texts which he says he does.)

Timothy Gordon Responds to Richard DeClue and Chris Plance on Vatican II and Dr. Taylor Marshall

Who Is Right About Vatican 2? – YouTube

Timothy Gordon does not disagree fundamentally with their view that Dr. Taylor Marshall is wrong about Vatican II, but he does offer some distinction and perhaps leans in a slightly more reserved sense.

I point this out as another great watch if you want to find out the truth about Vatican II.

Chris Plance and Richard DeClue Respond to Dr. Taylor Marshall on Vatican II

Taylor Marshall’s Errors on Vatican II: Chris Plance and Richard DeClue Respond – YouTube

Another excellent video refuting Dr. Taylor Marshall’s errors on Vatican II thought and ideas. The video stresses that most people do not have time to research theology in depth due to the demands of family and work. We have to be careful what we post online and what we watch and learn. They stress the importance of balanced and faithful teaching by YouTube video personalities.

This video is a good watch if you are being sawed by Dr. Taylor Marshall’s ideas.

Mass Exodus: Catholic Disaffiliation in Britain and American since Vatican II by Stephen Bullivant

I want to share and bring awareness to the results of an excellent study on post Vatican II Catholic disaffiliation.

Vatican II was a council to help the Catholic church meet the demands of modern times. Yet, soon after the Catholic world collapsed and so many people stopped going to church and even stopped calling themselves Catholic. What happened?

Was Vatican II’s desire to change the liturgy and sacraments the cause of the loss of faith?

This is what Stephen Bullivant studies in his new book.

Do you want to know his conclusion?

Catholic retention of it members in American and Britain in the Post Vatican II era was stronger than for Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists and Anglicans. He thinks that this was at least partially due to Vatican II reforms. He even claims that “Had there been no council, scholars might now be writing that if only the Church had timidly embraced the Liturgical Movement… Pope John Paul realized his dreams for a council… ” Stephen recognizes that Vatican II reforms led to a more robust faith life at least in part. Yet, Stephen also notes that because Vatican II had as its aim to renew the liturgy and get people active it is also to blame for losing people. The changes were too fast and the Father’s knew that they were trying to get people engaged and the exact opposite happened. Stephen is clear though, that the situation is complex, there were numerous non-catholic factors at play that were impossible to predict at the time. If the changes of Vatican II were to blame it would only be in part.

Review: Why did so many Catholics leave after Vatican II? | America Magazine In contrast a review from the Jesuits American Magazine disagrees that the Church Fathers could even have predicted that the loss of faith was going to happen.

But it is not quite clear that Vatican II failed because it did not stem the tide of disaffiliation. It is more likely that the Council fathers did not even perceive the scope of disaffiliation on the horizon, the social changes that were to sweep Europe and the United States. And it is possible—although sociologically impossible to prove—that it is the post-conciliar church alone that will have the resources to respond to the real crisis, the one that the Council fathers could not have recognized. Despite this disagreement, there is much to learn from Bullivant’s well-written, often humorous and intelligent engagement with sociology, theology and pastoral practice.

So if you agree with the statement that Vatican II reforms did cause some but not all loss of faith, or with the Jesuit review that it was the reforms themselves that help the church survive and become stronger, Mass Exodus is a good read to get informed. Both would agree that at this point it is almost impossible to tell without going back and not having one and see how things turn out.

That is what I want to point out. Don’t listen to people who tell you if only this or that things would have been much better! The world full of 1000 changes throughout those years was too complex to work out for these scholars and they admit it. Even Stephen says Vatican II was helpful but also possible a hurt to the situation. We just don’t know!

What we do know is that Vatican II theology and spirituality is where we are at now. This is what the Popes are preaching now, and what we are called to do in the eternal Today of salvation.

De l’ambiguïté — + Archidiacre +

Explique pourquoi l’ambiguïté n’est qu’un mauvais prétexte pour désobéir.

De l’ambiguïté — + Archidiacre +

Claiming that Vatican II is ambiguous has been going on for a long time. Its no different that what most people do who want to attack the faith. Atheists claim that the bible is ambiguous. Luther claimed his Catholic objectors were ambiguous. The trend is repeated over and over again. Saying that Vatican II is ambiguous, rather than subtle or intellectually challenging, is not a great argument. View the article to see why. (You can translate to English in google edge if you need too.)