Catholic Conspiracies After Vatican II

Catholic Conspiracies After Vatican II with Fr. Charles T. Murr and Kevin Symonds – YouTube

In this excellent resource the masonic relationship of Archbishop Bugnini and the Vatican II Liturgy. It takes the stance that Bugnini was a Masson – hence he was ‘promoted’ by Pope Saint Paul VI to Iran.

It also discusses how Pope Saint Paul VI had a complete review of the Vatican Employees and Clergy performed to determine if there were questionable influences. Paul VI’s famous quote about the smoke of Satan is arguable about this investigation.

Why This Canada Day Vatican II Thinking (Religious Liberty, Respecting Cultures, Evangelize From Within) Gives Hope When Previous Catholic Mindsets Failed and Resulted in Residential Schools (Religious Restriction, Destroying Cultures, Evangelizing by Force)

As a Canadian Catholic I have much to think about this Canada day over the discovery of more unmarked graves of children from residential schools run by Catholic missionaries and churches.

Compared to other countries Canada has developed a rather spotless history compared to most western countries. Slavery and Civil War blackens the States, and Colonialism, Imperialism, Exploitations, Slavery, and dozens of medieval and modern crimes of European countries blacken their histories even darker. Whereas Europeans largely reduced their neighbors to rubbles in earlier times along with all the pillage and plunder involved, North America was developed by less by conquest of the sword as conquest of culture, technology and smaller military engagements.

Residential schools are a dark spot on Canadian history and the Canadian Catholic Church had a part to play in them. I pray for this crime against so many people.

I thinking about all the stupidity that must have been involved in committing these crimes it started to make me feel sadder even more about the state of the Church in Canada. (people burning Churches in Canada is a result of popular hatred)

I am not going to get into the details of it all here, but offer one glimpse of hope for the Church in Vatican II.

Vatican II in its declaration of religious liberty, in its desire to reach out to the culture and its desire to evangelize the culture from within has such a great promise to it!

Vatican II’s mindset is such that something like residential schools would be out of the question. In fact, Vatican II’s mindset would promote something the opposite! Going out understanding a culture, bringing Christ to it and become the preserver of its cultural uniqueness.

Vatican II took a great stride forward from the mentality of Catholicism that got swept up with a Imperial Europe which sought to control populations overseas and ‘bring civilization’ with them. Now Catholicism never officially endorsed this mindset, the fact is sometimes its people did. Catholics have sought to force a European Catholicism upon others rather than a Catholicism suited for the people which takes their best and brings it to Christ.

That is what gives me hope — If my ancestors in Canada thought that getting ride of a culture and took kids away to places where some would die of TB was justified to bring them a European idea set —Vatican II clearly shows us that it is Christ’s was to respect the culture of others, respect their religious liberty and evangelize from within instead.

The flight of the doctrinal butterfly — Where Peter Is

Neither Pope Francis’s Magisterium, nor the Second Vatican Council’s documents, can be interpreted through a proper hermeneutic of continuity if one does not understand the concept of “doctrinal development.” Those who criticize those teachings, however, will often try to invalidate… The post The flight of the doctrinal butterfly appeared first on Where Peter Is.

The flight of the doctrinal butterfly — Where Peter Is

List of Locations Saints are Referenced in Vatican II: All 16 Documents

List of All locations where Vatican II uses in-text Saint references. (this does not included places where texts are referenced but the saint names are not used in the text but instead included as a footnote/endnote – the footnoted references are in the hundreds) The focus is on Saints in the popular sense. For example, people who were not saints at the writing of Vatican II are not included. (Pope Saint Paul VI, Pope Saint John XXIII) Additionally, persons of the bible such as David who are not usually referred to as saints in writing but are saints in the proper sense according to the Church are not included in the list. Mary also was excluded, although a saint her references deserve a separate category. (you see see the list of her references in Vatican II here) The idea was to focus on the points were Vatican II specifically quoted people or brought their witness to bear in which the person’s sainthood was a reason for their reference. (For example to show forth a link with tradition or the witness of the faithful)

For other Lists See – Mary Quotes, Marriage Quotes, Development/Modern Culture Quotes, List of Where Vatican II says its teaching, Non Universal Salvation Quotes and Eucharist Quotes

Lumen Gentium #20 “Thus, as St. Irenaeus testifies, through those who were appointed bishops by the apostles, and through their successors down in our own time, the apostolic tradition is manifested and preserved.”

Lumen Gentium #22 “Just as in the Gospel, the Lord so disposing, St. Peter and the other apostles constitute one apostolic college, so in a similar way the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter, and the bishops, the successors of the apostles, are joined together.”

Lumen Gentium #32St. Augustine puts this very beautifully when he says: “What I am for you terrifies me; what I am with you consoles me. For you I am a bishop; but with you I am a Christian. The former is a duty; the latter a grace. The former is a danger; the latter, salvation””

Lumen Gentium #56 “For, as St. Irenaeus says, she “being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.” Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert in their preaching, “The knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience; what the virgin Eve bound through her unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosened by her faith.” Comparing Mary with Eve, they call her “the Mother of the living,” and still more often they say: “death through Eve, life through Mary.””

Lumen Gentium #63 “As St. Ambrose taught, the Mother of God is a type of the Church in the order of faith, charity and perfect union with Christ.”

Dei Verbum #1 “Hearing the word of God with reverence and proclaiming it with faith, the sacred synod takes its direction from these words of St. John: “We announce to you the eternal life which dwelt with the Father and was made visible to us. What we have seen and heard we announce to you, so that you may have fellowship with us and our common fellowship be with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ” (1 John 1:2-3). “

Dei Verbum #20 ” Besides the four Gospels, the canon of the New Testament also contains the epistles of St. Paul and other apostolic writings, composed under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, by which, according to the wise plan of God, those matters which concern Christ the Lord are confirmed, His true teaching is more and more fully stated, the saving power of the divine work of Christ is preached, the story is told of the beginnings of the Church and its marvelous growth, and its glorious fulfillment is foretold.”

Unitatis Redintegratio #7St. Paul says: “I, therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace”.”

Unitatis Redintegratio #7 “The words of St. John hold good about sins against unity: “If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us”.”

Sacrosanctum Concilium #112 “Holy Scripture, indeed, has bestowed praise upon sacred song, and the same may be said of the fathers of the Church and of the Roman pontiffs who in recent times, led by St. Pius X, have explained more precisely the ministerial function supplied by sacred music in the service of the Lord.”

Sacrosanctum Concilium #117 “The typical edition of the books of Gregorian chant is to be completed; and a more critical edition is to be prepared of those books already published since the restoration by St. Pius X.”

Orientalium Ecclesiarium #3 “These individual Churches, whether of the East or the West, although they differ somewhat among themselves in rite (to use the current phrase), that is, in liturgy, ecclesiastical discipline, and spiritual heritage, are, nevertheless, each as much as the others, entrusted to the pastoral government of the Roman Pontiff, the divinely appointed successor of St. Peter in primacy over the universal Church. “

Presbyterorum Ordinis #5 “In administering all sacraments, as St. Ignatius Martyr has borne witness from the early days of the Church, priests by various titles are bound together hierarchically with the bishop. And so in a certain way they make him present in every congregation.”

Presbyterorum Ordinis #12 “Although divine grace could use unworthy ministers to effect the work of salvation, yet for the most part God chooses, to show forth his wonders, those who are more open to the power and direction of the Holy Spirit, and who can by reason of their close union with Christ and their holiness of life say with St. Paul: “And yet I am alive; or rather, not I; it is Christ that lives in me” (Gal 2:20).”

Presbyterorum Ordinis #13 “As St. Paul wrote to Timothy, “Let this be thy study, these thy employments, so that all may see how well thou doest.”

Optatam Totius #9 “They should learn to take part with a generous heart in the life of the whole Church in accord with what St. Augustine wrote: “to the extent that one loves the Church of Christ, to that extent does he possess the Holy Spirit.” “

Optatam Totius #16 “Next, in order that they may illumine the mysteries of salvation as completely as possible, the students should learn to penetrate them more deeply with the help of speculation, under the guidance of St. Thomas, and to perceive their interconnections. “

Gravissimum Educationis #10 ” In those schools dependent on her she intends that by their very constitution individual subjects be pursued according to their own principles, method, and liberty of scientific inquiry, in such a way that an ever deeper understanding in these fields may be obtained and that, as questions that are new and current are raised and investigations carefully made according to the example of the doctors of the Church and especially of St. Thomas Aquinas, there may be a deeper realization of the harmony of faith and science. “

Weaponization of the Eucharist and Vatican II

Is it a weapon to deny someone the Eucharist?

Yes, in a sense because it cuts someone off from something.

Yet, is that a problem?

No, if it is to save their soul.

Yes, if it is to simply make some politician win and only for that point.

Even St. Paul rebukes people and tells them that the eat judgment upon themselves. (cf. 1 Cor Ch. 11.)

Now its my turn to Weaponize The Eucharist to prove Vatican II’s worth by linking to a previous post listing all the places Vatican II talks about the Eucharist. It shows just how traditional and faithful the council really was.

https://defendingvatican2.ca/2020/10/01/vatican-ii-eucharist-quotes/

Chesterton – “The Napoleon of Notting Hill”: and Where Magic and Poems Come From in the Liturgy

I did not find The Napoleon of Notting Hill by Chesterton to be my favorite novel. There were several long winded and over done passages in my opinion, but that being said – the overall twist that the novel offers were some of the best ever written.

I don’t want to give any of the plot away because that would ruin the fun of the twists for anyone how desires to read this novel, yet I will point out some of the lessons in the masterpiece by Chesterton.

The general idea can be summed up as follows: A humoristic King enacts a whole series of new ways of life simply to have some fun. A young man takes them seriously and ends up starting a series of events that influences the beliefs and attitudes of others towards the new laws through which they also start to take them seriously.

There were always be those who resist new things because they are unaccustomed to them even if those things are more ancient and traditional than the current habits that they have. That was the joke of the King, to take medieval customs and bring them to modern London. Yet, to a young man the new customs can quickly become the only thing they have ever known and so naturally are deeply attached to them even as the older generation does not care for them. He was willing to fit for them and made the elders fit back, in the energy expended by themselves and the young man the elders are converted.

That is becoming the irony of Vatican II, the Vatican II Liturgy is arguable more Apostolic-Roman and Biblically based than the Liturgy of the Trent era. Currently there is a whole generation of young people that only know the Vatican II Liturgy. To claim that we should go back to Trent Style Liturgy in Latin is to cause another disruption to the minds of the faithful that the Vatican II change in Liturgy caused. Do we think the change would go any better? So much of habit (and its influence on faith) is not based upon anything other than repetition and expectation rather than any evaluation of what is truly a better Liturgy or way of singing. A change back would cause a disruption too and then we would have people make the same clown mass claims to the Tridentine mass.

To think that the Tridentine mass is better than the Vatican II one is like the King in Chesterton’s novel. It is as if someone is trying to trick us and play a joke by changing all the rules simply to go back in time. What the young man shows us, is that the real flavor or greatness in any system is the magic and effort we place into it. It takes great people to influence others to take it seriously. That’s the key not the rules but the poetically and purposeful attention that only true belief brings which is only fostered but never created by human works.

If we want great Church Liturgy what the goal or focus should be is not the laws or customs or form but the love and devotion and high ideal which we go into it with – like the young Napoleon of Notting – Nothing Hill – who was still great by his love for the Nothing Hill.

(and yes the Liturgy is not nothing – its Christ present to us so it will be a lot easier for us)

Acceptation Pacifique Universelle : réponse aux objections — + Archidiacre +

Réfutation des objections faites contre la doctrine de l’Acceptation Pacifique Universelle d’un pape, qui prouve avec certitude sa légitimité.

Acceptation Pacifique Universelle : réponse aux objections — + Archidiacre +

This article (which the Edge Browser can translate into English) goes over the following claims against the universal and peaceful acceptance of a Pope.

Summary of objections and What the Article Gives Responses to

After explaining the need for this doctrine, we will respond to various objections:

  • “Universal Pacific Acceptance is not a consensus among theologians.”
  • “Universal Pacific Acceptance is only a theological opinion.”
  • “Universal Pacific Acceptance concerns the whole Church, not just the bishops, and lay people have refused the legitimacy of John XXIII.”
  • “We sedevacantists did not exist before the promulgation of the heresies of Vatican II, and we had no reason to exist since no heresy has been defined.”
  • “During the vacancy of the See of Peter, the Church cannot teach dogmatic facts. It cannot therefore teach that a man has been legitimately elected and holds supreme authority. »
  • “Even if the bishops do not consider us Catholic, they are not infallible, and we still belong to their government and are subject to them.”
  • “Universal Pacific Acceptance only guarantees the legitimacy of the election of the chosen one, not that he is truly and legitimately Pope and Head of the Universal Church.”
  • “The bull Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio contradicts the doctrine of Universal Pacific Acceptance.”
  • “The antipopes Constantine II and Christophore were universally accepted by all bishops.”
  • “The election of universally accepted Popes were deemed null and void.”
  • “Theologians disobeyed John XXIII, so he did not benefit from Universal Pacific Acceptance.”
  • “Bishops disobeyed, and even doubted the legitimacy of Paul VI, so he did not benefit from peaceful and universal acceptance.”

Against The Religious Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen on Vatican II on Other Religions

I have already answered most of the objections raised by the Religious Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen will raise in my Topic by Topic analysis of Vatican II. (Linked Here)

In this post I will go part by part refuting this troubled congregations claims.

CMRI Claim NOSTRA AETATE #1: “The opening paragraph of this declaration (Nostra Aetate) strongly suggests that, yes, salvation may be found outside of the true fold. It states: “One also in their final goal: God. His providence, His manifestations of goodness, and His saving designs extend to all men against the day when the elect will be united in that Holy City ablaze with the splendor of God, where the nations will walk in His light.” The meaning of this last phrase does not at all agree with a similar phrase found in Sacred Scripture.

Response: The CMRI seem to have skipped over the REAL opening paragraph (by not quoting the first sentence of their chosen paragraph – which so also happens to explain it very well in the light of the faith). The real quote reads “One is the community of all peoples, one their origin, for God made the whole human race to live over the face of the earth. One also is their final goal, God. His providence, His manifestations of goodness, His saving design extend to all men, until that time when the elect will be united in the Holy City, the city ablaze with the glory of God, where the nations will walk in His light.” (Bold is they part the did not quote!)

Clearly Nostra Aetate #1 is making us recall that God create everyone, Catholics and all other people who practice other religions. This same God also made himself the final end of man regardless if you are Catholic or not. His saving design does extend to all people. (Jesus died for all not just people in the West how are Catholic). Yet, that extension to all people has an until – at the end of time things are finished and people will be in the Holy City.

Reading paragraph 1 as I have shows that the CMRI are using straw men miss quotes to attack a holy council.

CMRI Claim: Canons of the First Vatican Council in the First Chapter of its Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith: “1. If anyone denies that there is one true God, Creator and Lord of things visible and invisible: let him be anathema. 2. If anyone dares to assert that nothing exists except matter: let him be anathema. 3. If anyone says that God and all things possess one and the same substance and essence: let him be anathema.” These previous statements are at odds with Nostra Aetate.

Response: What does it mean to make someone anathema? Does that mean St. Paul could not enter a Jewish synagogue? – He clearly did. Does that mean we walk on a different side of the street as Jews and Protestants?

No it does not. When Vatican II says there are good aspects to other religions it is only stating a fact. Is the world fundamentally good or evil? How created it? — God that means the world is at its core good but has been corrupted by the first sin. To say that people and a way of life is completely evil is to say that God created something evil in itself which is impossible. Just think, is even the devil himself all evil? Could God have made something all evil? No. Being itself at least is good. Now a system of values and ideas could be evil completely because it is not matter, yet most religions contain at least a similarity or shared value set with Catholicism. In this way we can say there is something good in them. Is not God the source of all good?

I have previously gone through and shown how the

CMRI Claim: “It should be remarked that in no way can it be said that the followers of these religions (non-Catholics) make a “loving, trusting flight toward God;” the gods they worship are pantheistic deities — devils in reality — and, ultimately, themselves. What greater insult can there be offered to the true God than the worship of man, which is the ultimate purpose of the religious practices of Hinduism and many other Eastern religions?”

Response: It has been the ancient teaching of the Church including Saint Ambrose towards a non-Christian Emperor of his day and Saint John Chrysostom about Socrates that those who follow their conscience and are invincibly ignorant can make their way toward God. It may not be common but it is possible. It is even possible for the flight to be loving. How else would following your conscience and natural moral law be anything but loving. We have to recognize that each person has the natural law inscribed upon their heart! That enough is for people to avoid most grave evils in the Bible or elsewhere in Church law and truly be called loving.

The following are not direct responses to CMRI claims. Yet, I am not going to answer the usual and typical objections simply because CMRI makes them. These I have answered before.

So it is that that messianic people (The Church), although it does not actually include all men, and at times may look like a small flock, is nonetheless a lasting and sure seed of unity, hope and salvation for the whole human race.” –Lumen Gentium #9 Vatican Website Translation

Check this link Considering Taylor Marshall’s Comments on Nostra Aetate with Michael Lofton – YouTube

Buddhism

One of the most common arguments against Vatican II has to do with Nostra Aetate. In paragraph 2 you can read the following, “Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing “ways,” comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites.” http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

It is claimed that Vatican II teaches that Buddhism is a way to reach perfect liberation through personal effort alone. Taken in this way the paragraph is clearly false as only Jesus can offer prefect liberation and we can only attain this through grace not personal effort only.

But that is not what Vatican II says. If we read the text carefully we can see that Buddhism teaches a way to reach perfect liberation. The translation above is from the Vatican website. Other translations such as Costello Publishing Company’s Vatican Council II the Basic Sixteen Document translates docetur as proposes. Hence the sentence reads that Buddhism proposes a way. Taken in context with the next sentence which states that other religions try to counter human restlessness in different ways it becomes clear that Vatican II is not in error. First, saying that Buddhism teaches or proposes something is not the same as agreeing with the teachings validity. Second, the next sentence says that all religions propose ways to liberation but also does not mean that we agree with those ways. This first and second interpretation is the only way to make sense of the end of paragraph 2 which says, “The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.” Why would the paragraph claim that religious life in its fullness dwells with Christ and that she must proclaim this if other religions like Buddhism offer perfect liberation? Because the paragraph was not meant to mean that Buddhism validly teaches its followers perfect liberation but only proclaims to.

The argument claiming that Vatican II teaches error about Buddhism in Nostra Aetate fails to consider the entire paragraph which the quotation is taken from. Now one might argue that the wording does give the wrong impression, but taken in context with the following sentences the meaning becomes clear enough.

Hinduism

Again in paragraph 2. “Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry.” This is often claimed that Vatican II teaches that Hinduism with its many false gods and through myth expresses an inexhaustible mystery which is God. Yet, I think that is misusing the text. All it says is that through myth (which can be endlessly created by humanity) Hinduism contemplates the divine mystery. It does not mean that the false gods can fully represent God or His mystery but that at least some aspect is hinted at therein. (all created things bear at least some resemblance to God as remote as it may be) It does not also mean that Hinduism does not need Christ for its fullness as paragraph 2 ends as noted in section 2.1. “For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.” Romans 1:20. Hence, Hinduism sees something of God but does so inadequately through false gods.

Great Other Resource on the Subject

No Salvation Outside of the Catholic Church – Great Article linked here

Other ArgumentsMuslims etc…

Claim: Nostra Aetate #3 says that Muslims worship the creator of heaven and earth, but Muslims don’t worship the Trinity so this is wrong.

Response: It has been the position of the Church since the Apostles that the Jews worship God – the same God as the Catholics even though they do not recognize Jesus nor the Holy Spirit as God. The same logic here applies to Muslims who profess (i.e. does not necessarily mean do) to hold the faith of Abraham like the Jews. To deny this is to deny the link between the Old and New Testaments. This would destroy a basic tenant of Catholic thought resulting in a form of Gnosticism which held that the Old Testament God was not the same as the God of the New Testament. The Muslims get many things wrong. Yet, they get somethings right as well. Nostra Aetate clearly states in paragraph #2 that the Catholic Church holds the fullness of salvation. “Indeed, she [Church] proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.

In Fact, Pope St. Pius X goes even further than Vatican II in his Catechism Q12 under the communion of the saints section. All Vatican II says is that the Muslims worship God – that they are theists. St. Pius X’s catechism goes so far as to say that they worship the true God! That is something to recall when debating this issue. It was not something Vatican II came up with, and it never used the word true, just God as to point out that they are theists.

Claim: Nostra Aetate #4 says the Jews are very dear to God and that the Church should have mutual esteem and exchange knowledge with the Jew. Yet, the Jews rejected Jesus and need to be called back from their false religion so the Church cannot esteem them.

Response: The council of Trent was clear when it taught that all of sinful humanity not only the Jews were responsible for Jesus death. To say that the Jews rejected Jesus is the same as saying that most of secular society rejected Jesus. Do you esteem secular society/Roman society/Greek culture in any way? We can esteem some parts because although these cultures did reject Jesus some parts were not totally bad nor did all reject Jesus. The Apostles when they became Christian did not cease to be Jews! Nor did Jesus himself ever stop being Jewish! Catholicism was built upon Judaism. Even today there are Jews who convert, (they themselves never rejected Jesus 2000 years ago), become Christian and never stop being Jews. Why do they never stop? Because Christianity is not a repudiation of Judaism but a fulfillment. Just as Mary is given a special place as Mother of God, the Jews were given a special place as the people (race) from which Jesus was born and from which Christianity sprung. Catholicism is a incarnational thing. Esteem for the Jews, or that God holds them very dear is part and parcel with the incarnational nature of the incarnation. We don’t have to be afraid of esteeming some Jewish knowledge because they have preserved some valid understanding of the Old Testament which we as Christian sometimes forget.

On the fundamental importance of the Bible — Where Peter Is

The sixth and final chapter of Dei Verbum is about how the Bible is actually used and its fundamental importance in the Church. The chapter begins by saying that listening to the Bible at Mass stands on par with receiving… 15 more words

On the fundamental importance of the Bible — Where Peter Is

Review of Moving Beyond Vatican II by Eric Sammons

Eric Sammons article Moving Beyond Vatican II (crisismagazine.com) major point is as follows.

So, how should Catholics approach Vatican II? First, to be clear, this is not a call to “reject” Vatican II or to declare it heretical. It’s a call to stop being handcuffed to that council, to move beyond it. Too often we’ve had binary debates about Vatican II: you either have to follow it slavishly (or, more precisely, follow a specific interpretation slavishly), or reject it completely. We need to put Vatican II in proper perspective—both the good and the bad—and stop seeing every problem through a Vatican II lens. Perhaps the council doesn’t have the answer to our problems; or, even more controversially, perhaps the Vatican II solution isn’t the proper solution for today. ” (Bold mine)

There are several things Eric says that are true, but I would disagree with the major thesis. The reason I disagree that we should look beyond Vatican II for the problems of today is that the magisterium’s teaching does not say that. In fact, the popes and bishops have not said that we should move beyond it. The popes have been pretty consistent at saying we need to implement it in our lives and use it as a touch stone.

There have only been 21 ecumenical councils, of which Vatican II was the last, over the 2000 years of the church. There have only been 3 in the last 400 years. It would seem that the influence of councils should last about 100 years, not the 50 since Vatican II. That is just a number game not anything definite.

Yet, what sources does Eric have to say that we should look beyond Vatican II. Of course there is a need to always move further, but what Pope has been saying that. What I see is that Francis and the Popes before him have continually held Vatican II to be a touchstone for their pontificates.

The Second Vatican Ecumenical Council has been a gift of the Spirit to his Church. For this reason it remains a fundamental event not only for understanding the Church’s history at this end of the century, but first and foremost for exploring the abiding presence of the risen Christ beside his Bride in the course of world events.” ( The Celebration of the Great Jubilee 27 February 2000)

— Pope St. John Paul II

The Second Vatican Council was an extraordinary time of reflection, dialogue and prayer which aimed to renew the gaze of the Catholic Church on herself and on the world. [It involved] a reading of the signs of the times in view of an update oriented by a twofold faithfulness: faithfulness to the ecclesial tradition and faithfulness to the history of the men and women of our time.

— Pope Francis

“Vatican II happened 50 years ago, but it surely doesn’t belong to the past, its light still leads the Church through the darkness of her journey today”

— Cardinal Zen

Cardinal Ratzinger: “To defend the true tradition of the Church today means to defend the Council … And this today of the Church is the documents of Vatican II, without reservations that amputate them and without arbitrariness that distorts them” (The Ratzinger Report, p. 31)

Eric makes a good point that not all council are perfect (read the quote below). Yet, I would not go as far as him to say a council would fail simply because seven months after the council Martin Luther rebelled. That has happened after every council. Go into the history and you will find splinter churches being created after several ecumenically council even beginning with the first 7. After the Church Fathers declared several points about Jesus’ divinity and humanity or about Mary several bishops left the church and started other ones.

In the early 16th century, when the Church was in desperate need of reform, Pope Julius II convoked the fifth Lateran Council. Sadly, the council failed; the reforms it sought did not take hold, and seven months after the council’s close Martin Luther posted his 95 Theses, instigating the Protestant Reformation. It took the Council of Trent decades later to truly begin the process of reform. That didn’t make Lateran V an invalid council; it was just an inconsequential council (or a “waste of time,” as Ratzinger would call it). 

If Martin Luther was a big deal seven months afterwards, how much more the persecution of the early church by Saul soon after it just got started with Peter and the Apostles themselves. Look what Ven. Fulton Sheen has to say “The tensions that developed after the Council are not surprising to those who know the whole history of the Church. It is a historical fact that whenever there is an outpouring of the Holy Spirit as in a general council of the Church, there is always an extra show of force by the anti-Spirit or the demonic. Even at the beginning, immediately after Pentecost and the descent of the Spirit upon the apostles, there began a persecution and the murder of Stephen. If a general council did not provoke the spirit of turbulence, one might almost doubt the operation of the third Person of the Trinity over the assembly.” Treasure in Clay by Bishop Sheen – Trouble is a sign that it was the Holy Spirit.

Also comparing to Vatican II to Lateran V ” Sadly, the council failed; the reforms it sought did not take hold ” is not the greatest. Vatican II’s reforms did take hold – Liturgy is definitely not the same, liturgical calendar is different, so much is different!

Eric does make a point, quoting Joseph Ratzinger “Not every valid council in the history of the Church has been a fruitful one; in the last analysis, many of them have been a waste of time.” The Church will be guarded in her teaching at the councils! – yet perhaps not all the stuff that was needed ended up being discussed so its purpose failed to accomplish some goals.

Yet is that true with Vatican II. Partly – yes not all its goals were accomplished. The problem is the Popes don’t think that is true of Vatican II. Pope after Pope says it is a touchstone. Thus, if we want to claim we need to move beyond because it failed, then you need to change the Pope’s will. If you claim that we need to move beyond because we need even more to meet today’s challenges, not because Vatican II failed but because we need more teaching then I will listen more willingly.